AMA with Circle CEO Jeremy Allaire: #AskJerAllaire

Jeremy Allaire: Hello. I'm Jeremy Allaire, and this is The Money Movement. A show where we explore the issues and ideas in this brave new world of digital currency and blockchain. We are 20 episodes into the show. We've had nearly 60 guests, including some fantastic former financial industry government leaders, regulators, startups. An incredibly diverse range of conversations that we've had over this past months. It's been really rewarding, and I think also has grown with thousands of listeners and viewers around the world. This has really grown, and we're very excited about continuing these conversations.

I think when I started this show, I really thought about this as a place where I could help to convene conversations on the topics that mattered around digital currency and blockchains. That convening of conversations is really a critical thing that we all need to do as we're exploring and learning and there's so much change happening in this space by the day, by the hour, by the week, et cetera. We've really been blessed with the quality of those conversations and the quality of the engagement.

I also just want to thank all of you as listeners, viewers, as audience. Really appreciate your continued interest in it. If you like the show please, please hit subscribe on YouTube, like this, follow us on Apple, on Spotify. Of course, share this with a friend, share this with people you know. We want to widen more and more people into these conversations on global digital currency.

Today, speaking of widening the conversation, we're going to be turning it around and bringing more people into the conversation by having people bring in questions directly to me. This is our first, ask me anything Money Movement, and we've really seen fantastic questions come in. We've sourced questions from many of our key stakeholders from the audience via direct messages, emails, social media, via employees, partners, and most importantly have been able to source some fantastic questions from many of the guests who've been on the show as well. I put them in a place where we were having conversations. I was asking a lot of questions. I wanted to hear their questions too. You're going to hear questions from some fantastic former guests of Money Movement today as well.

The format here is, I'm going to try and answer as many of these as possible, but we've been really blessed with a lot of questions. I think what we're going to end up doing is a bonus on-demand second episode to answer even more of those questions. Every question and every answer, it's also going to be published as a standalone video clip. Again, subscribe on YouTube, and you'll get to see all those questions and answers blasted out as well. We'll be pushing all that out for everyone.

Let's get started. I've got a question here that came in from a Twitter handle, Americando. There's a couple parts to the question. First is, "Do you see Bitcoin and other proof of work assets surviving in the mid to long term with the International Monetary Fund and entities like them, calling for the implementation of greener technologies in the digital currency space?" For those that aren't aware, proof of work is a security model for securing public blockchains. It is computationally intense and resource intense. I think there's been over time, varying degrees of hype, oftentimes also misinformation. Also some reality that the mining model that supports proof of work would cause significant kinds of emissions. That we need to move from proof of work to less energy-intensive models.

I think a couple things here. The first is, I do think one should really look into this more closely. There've been lots of studies on this, and there's been a lot of analysis around this and very, very good research. I think one of the things that's been most noteworthy, however, is, if you're close to companies and players in the vertical scale, industrial digital currency mining industry. Many of these are very large firms that have really focused on trying to become as energy efficient as possible. The concept being that, if your energy costs are lower, that your effectively margin is higher for every block that you're able to mine.

We've seen incredible efforts to build in geothermal environments, solar-powered environments, water-powered environments. We've also seen, mining attached to nuclear power plants. It's been fascinating to watch this effort to essentially get marginal value out of each block mine by becoming more energy efficient. In fact the hardware infrastructure, the cooling infrastructure, all the infrastructure that goes around this, it naturally drives towards lower unit costs in terms of energy intensity. How that plays out over time from a data center energy efficiency perspective, Bitcoin mining and other proof of work mining data centers are pursuing some of the most green energy-efficient models in the world.

With all that said, when you think about this at scale, as the hash rates become more competitive as the value of something like Bitcoin rises into the hundreds of thousands of dollars per Bitcoin, this could continue to be an issue. Now, I think whether a super national consortium of countries or a given government is recommending or suggesting that models evolve is one thing, but I think the market is already way, way ahead of governments on this.

Obviously, Ethereum 2.0, which is a major initiative to evolve the security and consensus model for Ethereum is moving to a proof of stake model. Proof of stake models are fundamentally more energy-efficient. Relying more on commodity high-performance computing in some cases. That is, I think really the more fundamental change. That's not going to change Bitcoin, but certainly for many of these third-generation blockchains that are designed to meet the scaling needs of really broad based adoption. I think that shift is naturally happening. Whether there's international organizations saying it's important or not, the market is certainly already moving to that.

Another question here actually from Joanna. "With the dominance of USD-based stable coins, do you foresee a similar rise of other denominated stable coins, GBP, Euro, Yen to facilitate business and retail transactions, or do you think there'll be more of a shift to USD as global currency?" There's a lot in this question, and we could talk about this for an entire episode, and maybe this is actually a good idea for an episode that we could pursue. The rise of other fiat digital currencies stable coins.

There's a few things here. I think, clearly, fiat backed digital currencies that are issued on public blockchains, that run on public blockchain infrastructure have huge advantages.

Of course, in a given regional environment, whether you're the UK, the Eurozone, or Japan, or an emerging market in another part of the world. The advantages of having these fiat digital currencies is really significant. I think we're going to see absolutely a proliferation of other fiat digital currencies from the private sector, from public-private sector collaborations.

Actually a stated mission of Centre Consortium which Circle as a member of, and which governs USDC, is to expand the center stable coins into other-- Both reserve currency stable coins and emerging market stable coins. There's, I think a good amount of interest in that. We absolutely see that expanding. I think at the core, this is part of the shift towards businesses and individuals wanting to use digital currencies in every day commerce, in digital commerce, in payments, in business to business payment. If you want to build a programmable contract to intermediate a business relationship and the counterparties are all in Germany, you're going to want that to be based on a Euro stable coin, you're not going to want that to be based on a dollar stable coin. Clearly as this goes more mainstream, that's going to happen.

On the other hand, there's also, I think a broader both geopolitical as well as macro-economic and more fundamentally trade economy argument that digital currencies which go over the top of the internet, they can be deployed peer-to-peer, they can transact with anyone with a piece of software on the internet. That really reserve currencies that are widely used in every day trade, where transactions between counterparties are denominated in those reserve currencies, that those will grow.

Because the combination of an already widely accepted and used reserve currency like USD and the internet is going to actually further cement, for example, the dollars role as a currency on the internet. We're now talking about the growth of internet-based digital currencies and USD is very well positioned. I think it's one of the reasons why in today's world of digital currency, the dollar-based stable coins have grown dramatically faster than other stable coins that have been introduced in different regions around the world.

Over the long run though, I think there is a shift. I think this is a deeper political and economic consideration, which is that in a world where everyone is connected on the internet and people can vote for what economic system they want to participate in with their smartphone. In the same way they can interact with people everywhere from a communications perspective, I do think that there will be a shift towards more global currency models. It's unlikely to me over the long run that that's going to be just the dollar. I think over the long run, we will see synthetic global digital currencies that are composed of leading reserve currencies. I think we'll also continue to see digital currencies for many, many countries, and we'll have real-time convertibility across those at virtually no cost. Lots in the question, lots in the answer as well.

A question that came in actually, it was an anonymous question, which I'll read here, which is, "I work in the crypto industry and was drawn to it because of how I thought it could change society for the better. With all the attention now on companies and their views of employee activism, where does Circle stand on all of this?" I think this is a great question. This question came in a couple of days ago. I thought what we could do, is actually share something more explicitly. Which is, we're publishing right now as we speak Circle's mission and values document.

This is a mission and values document that we updated in January of this year, and really is a foundation for how we think about our corporation, our mission, what we're trying to do. It's something that in fact, every employee in our company is measured against, when we even think about performance reviews, how are they aligning with that. I'm not going to read through the whole thing, it's a sizable document, it's up on our blog now. Just at a high level, our mission is to raise global economic prosperity through programmable internet commerce.

The opening paragraph of the mission states, Circle was founded on a belief that blockchains and digital currency will rewire the global economic system, creating a fundamentally more open, inclusive, efficient and integrated world economy. We envision a global economy where people and businesses everywhere can more freely connect and transact with each other through a system that has the reach and accessibility of the internet, and knows no borders or boundaries. We believe such a system can raise prosperity for people and companies everywhere.

We break down that mission and the meaning behind the core words in that mission. Then we talk about our values, that we are a multi-stakeholder company, and we think about our stakeholders as customers, our shareholders, our employees, and our families, and also our local communities. This is a really key thing that I want to emphasize, which is corporations do not exist in a vacuum. Corporations are multi-stakeholder. We are social institutions that exist in the context of our local communities, and we have obligations to those local communities and things like Black Lives Matter do matter.

I think for us, that's woven into our values, that's woven into what we expect from our employees that they are engaged in their local communities. That it means that we as a corporation are engaged in global scale issues such as climate change and sustainability. We cannot avoid these issues that are both local and global, and it's woven into our mission. There are a lot of other pieces to that which I encourage all of you to take a look at. We wanted to make this available to anyone that's going to interact with Circle, whether you're a potential employee, whether you're a regulator, a partner, a customer, we want people to know what we stand for.

Lots more good questions here. Here's a question from Twitter handle, ZoomcallSaul. "How does the new OCC interpretive letter change things for USDC? Will you collaborate better with banks?" It's a really good question. Without getting into all the details, the OCC, the main regulator for national banks in the United States issued a letter specifically clarifying that national banks under its supervision could provide reserve accounts, or accounts to hold the reserves that are held backing full reserve regulated digital dollar stable coins.

I think this is a very, very positive development for USDC. I think it's a very positive development on many fronts. It sends a message that within the US financial system, digital dollar stable coins that are compliant, regulated, and full reserve are a legitimate infrastructure in the US economy. We hope to see more from the OCC on this topic, not just for how banks might hold reserves, but ultimately participate, and hold and use these types of digital currencies. Of course, we see the enormous amount of payment system innovation that's coming from this. We are actually seeing more and more regulated financial institutions, both banks, FinTechs and others getting involved in starting to implement and support USDC in different ways.

In terms of collaborating better with banks, I do think so. I think that we'll find more and more banks at every level of the economic system wanting to interact with things like USDC as a new payment system innovation. I expect that it's going to grow the capacity that's available for holding these reserves as well. As we've seen in the past months, USDC itself has grown from around 400 million USDC in circulation to over 2.5 billion USDC in circulation.

As the use cases proliferate, as more and more financial institutions get involved, it's not unreasonable to imagine this in the tens of billions of USDC in circulation in the not too distant future. We need the stability, and the risk management, and the oversight of national banks too to support that and be involved in that. I do think we'll see a lot more collaboration with banks over the next year.

I want to take a question, actually two questions from a former guest of the show. These questions are from Larry Summers, former Secretary of Treasury and advisor to the National Economic Council head for the Obama administration and obviously, a very distinguished economist himself, and a guest that we had here to talk about a wide range of things. Larry asks, the first question, "Which do you think crypto threatens most? A, wire transfer, money transfer businesses. B, gold as a store of value. Or C, traditional approaches to payments."

There's not an answer which is maybe both, but I'm going to give a slightly nuanced answer on this. I think that in the near term, it really depends on which crypto we're talking about. Cryptocurrencies that are fundamentally designed to be scarce store of value assets like Bitcoin, obviously, threatened gold and the role of gold as a store of value. Because a digital currency, a digital asset such as Bitcoin has far superior characteristics to gold. It absolutely threatens to take share as a risk asset, or an asset to hold in lieu of what is taking place in terms of sovereigns and their behavior from a monetary perspective, so I think certainly in that case.

Other crypto assets that are really digital commodities that support these broader public networks for transaction settlement, for computing resources, things like Ether and Ethereum, and many other third-generation chains. I think that the combination of stable coins with those crypto assets, in the short to medium term, I think are very threatening to the traditional wire settlement money-transfer business. Many of the fastest adopters of digital dollar stable coins are firms that make international payments. Where they are seeing that they can settle a payment in dollars at the speed of the internet for very low cost with the settlement finality in new blockchains and as quickly as seconds or even milliseconds. That's really significant. I think in the near term is going to be most threatening in there.

Over the mid to long term, clearly, traditional approaches to payment are going to be very threatened. This infrastructure, as third-generation blockchains come online, and as more consumer-facing companies that touch hundreds of millions to billions of people implement stable coins. That is going to have a major impact on traditional approaches to payments, the traditional networks, traditional models. That, I think, is going to play out over the next few years. That was the first question. Thank Larry.

The second question was, "When will the absence of crypto in a portfolio be more surprising than its presence?" I love this question. There's different measures that we have, say in the United States or in China or other markets, that are very active in crypto like Japan or Korea. Clearly, today, the minority of people have crypto in their portfolio and there's been a lot of discussion about, at what point do all the institutional asset managers have crypto? At what point are there ETFs that allow individuals to hold on to this?

I think we're very much continuing to see this kind of growth in mainstream adoption. I think we're going to see big milestones. There's rumors that major players like PayPal would allow every Venmo user to purchase and hold Bitcoin. Generationally, I think young people through Gen-Xers, I think the majority are going to have crypto in their portfolio very soon. I think that's within the next two years. If you look at the broader demographics and scope, maybe longer.

However, it may show up in people's portfolio inadvertently if you're holding a certain index fund or mutual fund, or you have a pension with a State, or you're in an endowment. Many of these are holding crypto through investments in other funds. When you pierce through all of that, I think within two to three years, we'll be at a point where it'll be more surprising to find people who don't have crypto exposure than do.

Another question from a former guest, Kyle Samani from Multicoin Capital. He asks, "What is the biggest demand driver for USDC going forward?" It's been fascinating to watch the different forces driving demand for USDC. We've seen growth in crypto as a whole as a driver of USDC. We've seen dollarization and businesses and individuals in emerging markets around the world demanding more USDC, because of its superiority as a store of value and as a settlement mechanism. We've seen growth in the use of USDC in lending markets. A huge driver has been, in some ways, taking the base layer of blockchains as a kind of operating system, and then, the apps on top of it being fiat money, and lending.

Those are apps that tie together in a really natural way. As we've seen the protocols for fiat money, like USDC and the protocols for lending, proliferate, we've seen huge demand drivers for those, as well. As we look out over the next year, I think there's going to be two very big drivers. I know you've asked for the biggest. I think growth in, essentially, digital dollar money-markets is going to be an enormous driver. I think the ability for the internet to establish and coordinate supply and demand for capital over internet-based markets is going to outperform the way in which that happens in many other parts of the financial system. Individuals and business owners, and treasuries, and others, are going to be drawn to participate in those markets.

When you think about the scale and size of those markets, where you take currency money markets, as a whole, this is a massive multi-trillion dollar space. I think as the growth in interest rate markets and money markets and other types of things happens on the internet, both through centralized platforms and decentralized platforms, that is going to be a very big driver. I think the second biggest driver is going to be the rapid rise of the use of USDC in global settlements as businesses, as Fintechs, as other application developers, see the advantages of this, and that's going to drive significant adoption, as well. Thank you, Kyle.

Moving on. Lots and lots of other questions. This is a question from Julien Hawle, former guest on The Money Movement, with Bank Frick, which is a European Union Bank. Also, a bank that's very active in digital assets. He has a number of questions. I'm going to take one of his which is, "Recently, the European Commission has published the first draft of the coming crypto-asset regulations. Stable coins are a very big topic, especially ones that the Commission classifies as, 'significant ones.' What is your take on the proposed regulation, and what do you think is the effect on the adoption of USDC as well as stable coins in general? Would you view the proposed regulation as a good step forward towards mainstream adoption or rather as a step backward?"

There's a broader question here, which is whether it's through guidance from regulators in the US through new laws passed in the EU, to many other approaches taken within the G20 as a whole, which is going to be adopting a set of recommended policy guidelines for stable coins. The reality of government rules and supervision of these important, large stable coins is inevitable, and I think is also very important. I think as we have rules of the road defined, that is going to dramatically increase confidence in this as a payment infrastructure.

It is going to dramatically increase confidence in these stable coins as a stored value instrument that businesses can rely upon in financial contracts, that individuals can experience the benefits from a utility value perspective. I think broadly, having these rules and having them come into play is going to be massively significant in terms of mainstream adoption. I think the really critical thing here though is, and this is something that we have conversations with regulators about all the time.

The really critical thing is not to just take the frameworks that exist for the legacy electronic-money systems and just try and superimpose those on top of digital currency and stable coins. Because there are fundamental breakthroughs, technical breakthroughs and fundamental innovations that stable coins make possible and we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, as we say.

For example, the ability for a stable coin to act as a bearer instrument and to be able to work on a peer-to-peer basis globally is incredibly powerful and can unleash an enormous amount of economic value for individuals, for labor markets, for businesses. The programmability of that, if you know that you have an underlying digital money asset and it can be encapsulated and interacted with in a programmable way with a smart contract, that's fundamental as well. Some of the approaches attempt to railroad stable coins into just being, "Oh, this is an electronic money-payment system and so we got to regulate it that way." Stable coins are a lot more than that, they expand beyond that.

I think the really critical thing is as regulators engage and as industry keeps innovating, that we work together to make sure that these breakthroughs that are ultimately going to raise global economic prosperity for everyone, are not lost and that we can embrace them. That the fundamental risks that are important around consumers not being defrauded, or around the fundamental integrity and security of these systems, the fiduciary responsibilities for those that deal in those things are really key. Good question, Julian. Thank you.

I got another question from another guest as well. Federico asked, from Kleros, he asks, "I'm from Argentina, a country which throughout history has seen a number of currency and financial crises, including hyperinflation, banks and governments confiscating people savings, et cetera. How can all these tools you've presented over the episodes of the Money Movement, help me? How can they make life better for all of us living in emerging economies?"

This is such a powerful question. It's so profound. I think when we ultimately look back on the innovation of stable coins and we look back at the innovation of digital currency more broadly in a few years time. We're going to see that it has become transformative for people in many, many economies in the world. Digital currency creates a way for individuals to a essentially elect what economic system they want to participate in with their smartphone. It gives people the freedom to transact with others globally, safely, securely in a nearly free way.

It gives people the ability to participate in credit markets, in lending markets, in many, many other innovations that we haven't yet seen, and that's profound. It's as profound as the use of social media in the Arab Spring. It's very profound. I think that this technology innovation does have political consequences that are going to ripple across the world over time and they have in some instances. I think this is something that at the end of the day, people and businesses, which is society, are going to are going to vote for what they think is a allowing them to thrive in this global economic system. In my view, I think it can make a tremendous difference in helping people store value, helping people safely transact, participate in global economic relationships. All of all these things are things that it can help to become more possible.

Moving back to Twitter. Let's see, here. We have couple questions here. This is someone on Twitter named cryptossec. "As most enterprise deployments are currently on Corda, HyperLedger, Quorum. Are there any plans to enable USDC on those chains, enabling settlement by financial institutions in USDC? I think there's a couple key answers here. The first is that Centre Consortium governs USDC as a set of technical standards and the overall arrangement for how it works. Centre Consortium, which Circle is a member of earlier this year published guidelines on multi chain USDC. In fact, just in recent weeks the second official chain for USDC was launched, which was Algorand.

Actually, as we talked about in Circle's blog post, and also I think in Center's communication around this. One of the key use cases that was attractive about Algorand in particular was that it was a blockchain that was designed very much with financial institutions in mind with features and capabilities and scalability, characteristics, and other things that would be attractive to financial institutions. What we've seen happen, is, with these 'permissioned' or private blockchains. I think they're all interesting conceptually, but at the end of the day, if you've got people who want to settle a transaction, you need to have digital cash on the blockchain. We've seen emerging demand from some of these types of projects for USDC.

Centre Consortium, again, defines a way for both public blockchains and private blockchains and hybrid blockchains to be able to do this and implement USDC. In fact, we've seen some permission chain projects that essentially peg USDC that's on chain USDC to a token that's used in a permissioned chain as well. I think we're going to see a wide variety of models emerge for that. I think that pattern of public, private and hybrid especially in certain enterprise contexts will emerge and become more common in the coming years.

At the end of the day, everybody, every enterprise, every financial institution, every individual is going to want to know that at the bottom layer of this, that there is a digital asset that they can settle on a public blockchain, and that is liquid and convertible into the financial system. I think the adoption of standards and common protocols like USDC is really critical to that. We're excited to see how projects like Corda, and HyperLedger, and Quorum and others adopt USDC going forward.

Another question that came in, it's actually a related question. This is from a former guest as well, Itamar Lesuisse, the CEO of a Argent, a really innovative crypto wallet and DeFi wallet. His first question was, "USDC has plans to launch on Algorand, what do you think needs to happen for a new layer one to seriously challenge Bitcoin and Ethereum?" I think it's a great question. I think it's a question that's on the minds of a lot of developers right now. Obviously there's been tremendous growth in protocols that are built on top of Ethereum. The demand for those and the usage of those has deeply strained the Ethereum network in terms of cost efficiency and some other challenges as well.

These are known limitations in Ethereum 2.0, obviously, which is still in development in terms of being able to really fully substitute protocol development on top of it, for some time still. It certainly has raised this question of other layer one chains. To be clear as we conceptualized USDC and as Centre Consortium has gone forward, we think of it as a protocol that should be cross chain. We think there's a tremendous amount of innovation happening in other blockchains. Just like HTTP works on your iPhone and your Android phone and your windows machine and your Linux machine. Your digital money, your Fiat digital currency should work across platforms and operating systems. In this case, blockchain platforms as well.

In terms of what really needs to happen for a new layer one to seriously challenge something like Ethereum in particular, it really comes down to deployed applications and developers getting benefits from that. I think that we've seen obviously developers focused very heavily on DeFi, and I think we are seeing some chains emerge that I think are really attractive for DeFi applications. We're also seeing chain emerge that I think would be really attractive for running global capital markets infrastructure. I don't think you're going to run global capital markets infrastructure on Ethereum right now.

As the use cases for stable coins grow, the different chains grow as well. I think we are seeing demand for example from very large consumer payment companies that touch very large numbers of internet users, wanting to deploy stable coin as a payment medium, and clearly new layer one chains are needed for that. I think it's a mixture of developer adoption on chains that I think are really good for things like DeFi. I think it's major industries, like say capital markets, or decentralized capital markets, or use cases like payments or the issuing of securities, or other things are going to drive these new layer ones, in terms of bigger adoption.

I've got another question here, which is from Kristen Smith, the founder of the Blockchain Association. Thank you, Kristin. There's two questions here. One is, "If you could have a government agency take one action to support the adoption of USDC, what would that action be?" The second question was, "Some policymakers want to see the US adopt a central bank digital dollar. How does this fit with USDC in terms of this policy goal?" This is something that we've touched on in other episodes of the Money Movement but it remains a really important topic.

In terms of an action of a government agency, I think the really critical thing right now is financial institutions. Whether they be FinTechs that hundreds of millions of users and tens of millions of individuals in the US depend on, or traditional banks. They need to see a path to using this in their infrastructure. To see protocols like USDC on public chains as a stored value financial instrument that they can have on a balance sheet, that they can store, that they can use, and as a payment infrastructure. I think, from my perspective, a really key thing would be clarity from, perhaps, the OCC around how the financial industry in the United States can actually interact with and utilize something like USDC. I think that's really critical. I think that's going to be critical as well for Libra and associated stable coins from Libra. That's, I think. at the top of my list.

The second question, which was, "Policymakers want to see the US adopt a central bank digital dollar, how does this fit?" I look at these things on different timelines. I think right now there's one timeline, which is, there's a huge amount of innovation in public blockchain infrastructure. there's a huge amount of private sector innovation around these types of digital Dollar stable coins and the standards for those, and the governance models around them, and the risk management around them. There's a huge amount of private sector work that's going on there, and that's accelerating. That's one timeframe.

You can imagine what that might look like in two or three years and it could be quite significant in scale. On the other hand, we have, I think, very important considerations from policymakers, very important work being done by many different groups at the Federal Reserve looking at what is the federal government's role in digital currency in the future. I think, probably, what we envision is that some point in the future, perhaps in two years, perhaps in three years, maybe faster, maybe slower, these things are going to meet.

You're going to see the broad industry-driven arrangements, not just in the US, but we envision protocols like USDC being adopted by many jurisdictions for other digital currencies with standards around them. In many places, not just in the US, we're going to see that the central banks are going to want to have some supervisory relationship with those arrangements, and likely, some relationship to the underlying reserves. The reserves that back a USDC, maybe eventually those are held with the Fed, instead of within the commercial banking system. Those are questions that need to be thought of and addressed and I think we'll see develop in parallel, and ultimately, I think, in a highly constructive, complimentary fashion over the next two to three years.

That is it for today. We have so many other questions. I think we probably got another 50 questions here. We are going to come back to these. We're going to record more on-demand episodes and get those out as quickly as we can because these are great questions and I want to answer them. That bonus on-demand AMA stay tuned for that. Actually, the last question is a great segue into next week's episode.

I'm very pleased to be joined by former CFTC Chairman and Co-founder of the Digital Dollar Project, also known as Crypto Dad, Christopher Giancarlo, for a discussion on the Digital Dollar Opportunity. Until next time, stay well, stay safe and stay informed. Thank you.

[music]

[00:45:13] [END OF AUDIO]