The Emergence of DAOs with Aaron Wright of Tribute Labs

[00:00:00] Jeremy: Thank you, Ryan. That was great. We're going to roll right into our next session. Uh, we're running just a few minutes behind on it, but we're going to have a short break after that. Hey Aaron,

[00:00:14] Aaron: how are you, Jeremy? Thanks so much for you.

[00:00:16] Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm, I'm uh, just, just welcome you here. So let's just give a round of applause to Aaron Wright.

[00:00:21] Jeremy: Who's joining us.

[00:00:27] Jeremy: All right. Um, well, you're, you're in the room now with hundreds of circlers we've gathered together here. Uh in-person. Which is pretty awesome. Um, and, uh, we've been having some great conversations about many, many dimensions. What's happening in crypto. Um, w you know, we we've, we've talked a bunch at a high level about Dows and defy and NFTs and so on, but I'm super excited about this conversation with you.

[00:00:56] Jeremy: And just by, by, by way of introduction, just for everyone [00:01:00] here. Um, I I've chatted with Erin in the past. I've been following what he's been working on and writing about and thinking about and doing. Now for a couple of years, at least more than that. And, uh, and I've just always found Aaron to be one of the deepest and most thoughtful people on a whole range of topics, but has been at the forefront of douse, uh, uh, uh, for, for quite some time.

[00:01:24] Jeremy: And now the intersection of Dows and NFTs and, uh, what's happening with creative culture and value creation in so many things. So should be a really exciting conversation. But maybe Erin, if you just want to take a minute, Chair a little bit of your, your own history and background, uh, for everyone. And then we'll jump from.

[00:01:42] Aaron: Sure, thanks so much for the kind words. So, um, Hey everyone really glad you can all meet in person a little bit jealous about that. Um, um, add the CEO of tribute labs, uh, which is used to be called open law. I'm also a law professor at Cardozo law school have a background in law and [00:02:00] technology. I did a lot, uh, inside the Wikipedia ecosystem, uh, that a decade plus ago felt deep down that Bitcoin, uh, rabbit hole in 2020.

[00:02:10] Aaron: Uh, I was fortunate enough to play a role, to help launch a theory. And I did a lot of the legal structuring related to it. And then I've had the pleasure of working with a number of great teams like consensus and chain-link and a whole bunch of others. Uh, also coauthored a book, uh, on blockchain, on policy that Harvard university press published.

[00:02:28] Aaron: And as Jeremy noted at the top, I've been spending a lot of time thinking about how we can build out as, and how we can do that in a responsible.

[00:02:37] Jeremy: That is awesome. So like more O G than, than pretty much I think almost anyone in the room cleaning me, which is pretty awesome. Um, and let's, let's, let's dive in.

[00:02:48] Jeremy: I mean, I think, um, I'd love to get into some fundamental definitions or at least your definitions, uh, and, and given your background in law, you know, definitions are [00:03:00] pretty important. Um, but, um, you know, how do you define Dao? Today, and then I want to talk about next. How do you define a legal Dow today?

[00:03:14] Aaron: Yeah, I mean, the definitions in the blockchain space are difficult. Um, so we've had lots of definite definitional issues, whether it's more contracts than I think Daz. Uh, a big category and I think it's going to take some time to define them precisely. Uh, I think of them as open source organizations, so organizations that are primarily relying on a smart contract based system in order to manage a core group of assets and manage participation of the group, um, that can, uh, be human directed, um, or it can be algorithmically directed in the longer run.

[00:03:47] Aaron: So right now I think we're seeing a category of Dows. I call them participatory debt. Uh, that are really relying on smart contract based systems, um, you know, participatory governance in some sort of way to [00:04:00] manage a core treasury. And that's a big deal. And I think why people are interested in Daz is that they're really pressing towards this idea of having an organization that's headless, um, that has leadership.

[00:04:12] Aaron: That's more fluid than not as well. Um, and potentially is a little bit broader in terms of its scope. Although there's some regulatory challenges in getting to that size and that combination just creates organizations that are more efficient and can potentially operate with a greater degree of. And also, uh, handle the tour and have information that's getting, uh, pushed towards, uh, you know, groups and individuals and organizations in the digital era.

[00:04:40] Aaron: Um, and that, that's something that's pretty fascinating. Uh, other folks may lump into Dows things like Bitcoin and Ethereum. Um, you know, some folks try to categorize those as. Uh, maybe that's the first glimmers of more kind of algorithmic systems where the algorithm kind of sits in the center and then, uh, people perform tasks more at the edges.

[00:04:59] Aaron: [00:05:00] Uh, but I think in the long run, we'll see broader categories and broader expiration of those types of systems as well. So hopefully that gives a little

[00:05:07] Jeremy: bit, yeah, I think that's really helpful. I mean, it just, it's an interesting question. I mean, do you feel like, um, Kind of this there's sort of a technological capability that just didn't exist until we had public blockchain networks.

[00:05:19] Jeremy: Right. So that, that was sort of like a, we needed that infrastructure. We needed an economic infrastructure for the. Um, that could have immutable data that could store value and transact value that could have, you know, a mechanism to define participation, ownership, decisions, like all these things that, that just wasn't possible until basically Ethereum, but like, um, uh, in some ways the, the, the, the actual organic development of these right now, do you feel like it's, um, In some ways, just the, the [00:06:00] organism of the internet, just sort of, and humanity on the internet.

[00:06:03] Jeremy: Just sort of evolving in a, in a, in a natural way.

[00:06:08] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. I, I do. I mean, I think that's absolutely right. Um, that, you know, blockchain technology is the ability to move assets around. Um, at the speed of a blockchain, uh, the ability to record things like voting and sentiment in a more efficient way. Um, and, and the ability to delegate voting or other rights to third parties seamlessly through digital technology.

[00:06:31] Aaron: It's a huge efficiency improvement. Um, and now that we have that in place are the building blocks for that in place, we can begin to explore new structures to. Uh, to harness that capability and those new structures I think are going to look a little bit more like the internet. They're going to look less top down in the hierarchy.

[00:06:50] Aaron: And more like a swarm of people, uh, that are working together towards a common cause. And I think that that's a huge net positive. If you look at groups online, uh, in web one and what [00:07:00] to, they mostly congregated talked about things, sometimes they would mob or squirm around a particular topic that could be for, uh, you know, good purposes that could be for bad purposes.

[00:07:09] Aaron: But what they missed was a digital asset of some sort, some common bank accounts that they could work together and deploy for productive purposes. Uh, so in my mind, I do think that, uh, Daz are going to reflect kind of this core architecture of blockchains and the core architecture of the internet. Uh, and I think they're going to be a force for good, because they're going to enable disparate groups of people, whether they're in the us or Europe or other parts of the globe to get together and work towards something that's a little bit more productive.

[00:07:35] Aaron: I think the shape of that is just going to be different. It's not going to be organizations that are running. A board of directors and, you know, CEO or other kinds of executive teams, it's going to be a lot more people that are participating in ways that they're interested in participating. It's going to be more.

[00:07:51] Aaron: Um, and it's probably going to have less top-down control and more bottom up control, which ideally, and that's the hope and aspiration will just lead to [00:08:00] healthier organizations, right? The stakeholders, the users, these are the types of folks that are going to really be at the center of the organization instead of a smaller executive team.

[00:08:09] Aaron: Um, at that that's making all the disks.

[00:08:12] Jeremy: I mean, it's this, you know, there's sort of decentralization is this obviously like this meta-theme right. But democratization is sort of another theme and, you know, we've, we've struggled as societies to build democratic, um, corporations. Uh, and when w you know, corporations, you know, I'm at the top of a hierarchy, I'm the chairman of the board of circle on the CEO.

[00:08:35] Jeremy: And I've always drunk reports, a very hierarchical. I don't know people like that or not, but, um, they're going to, they love it, but, um, uh, but, but you know, it, it has been, it's been challenging, um, to, to have to create corporate forms that are more democratic, that produced. That produce things that goods and services that produce, uh, [00:09:00] you know, products and services, or it could, they could produce content.

[00:09:04] Jeremy: We're, we're seeing, obviously Dow's forming around investing now, um, and that syndicate model, and we just had a preeminent, syndicate, uh, you know, investment person on, um, just before you. Um, but, uh, What do you think? Um, you know, what do you think Dows are today relative to traditional corporate forms?

[00:09:29] Jeremy: What do you think their best. Achieving today of deliver. Yeah.

[00:09:35] Aaron: So I think it's really three things. I think one is we're seeing Daz used particularly the DPI space to manage open source technology. That's highly autonomous in nature, right? So smart contract based systems. So things like unit swap and a whole bunch of other defied protocols, they're really leaning into this idea that their stakeholders, their investors use.

[00:09:52] Aaron: And other participants that are interested in what they're doing should have a say in directing the future of that software system. And I think [00:10:00] that's a net positive, right? It's more inclusive. It has people that presumably are a little bit more, uh, invested, not just monetarily, but also emotionally. Uh, technically into a project that can weigh in and hopefully build healthier systems.

[00:10:13] Aaron: So if you've used something like, like unit swamp, as an example, as being an important core financial infrastructure, having a broad group of people that are able to weigh in and set parameters and kind of steer the direction of that is overall healthy. The second category is Robbie. I'd say like investment slash collector.

[00:10:30] Aaron: Uh, that's what we focused in primarily, uh, attribute labs. We have about $9 now there's about 200 plus million dollars worth of either. That's been contributed to them. Lots of transactions. Um, that are going on there. And the concept there is to get a group of folks together, um, that have skin in the game.

[00:10:47] Aaron: They're deploying their own capital and not somebody else's capital. Um, and they're melding a mine together, right? They're combining their networks, all the information that they're processing. And have lightweight tools so that they can make decisions rapidly and quickly. [00:11:00] And I think what we're seeing, especially in the crypto space, since it's so hard to parse through information, these types of headlines, these larger groups of people, uh, work better than a GPLP structure, a traditional fund structure, right?

[00:11:11] Aaron: So fund structures are great. There's lots of amazing people that run them there. They're constrained by the amount of information they can process their time. The opportunities when you have 80 a hundred, 200, 300 people that all have skin in the game. So that. That can make decisions rapidly. I think you're going to start to see better decision-making processes.

[00:11:30] Aaron: We're beginning to see that in some of the dads that we put together, the last category, which I think is more nascent, um, is what I would call a content and media Dows. So I think we're seeing kind of a Hollywood 2.0 emerge where people are using NFTs. Uh, creating a common core, uh, treasury to kind of manage the future development of media and content, which I think is absolutely fascinating.

[00:11:52] Aaron: Uh, last thing I probably should have said before, there's a smaller group of dads that are more service-based hours. Those are hard. Uh, I think providing [00:12:00] services. And, uh, you know, hype, highly decentralized, not top down way, uh, is possible, but I think there's a lot of challenges to getting there, but tech challenges, government challenges, and a whole bunch of operational challenges.

[00:12:12] Aaron: But I think, you know, in the long run Voke, we'll probably get there too.

[00:12:15] Jeremy: Yeah. I going to come back to that, but just kind of coming, staying with some of those themes. I mean, those are each one of those are massive, right? I mean, unit swap is obviously like it's like bigger than Coinbase, right? In terms of, in terms of liquidity, It's it's governed by individuals that own governance tokens, and it's developed entirely as open source software and it's operated entirely on the open internet and it, it, it it's rivaling some of the most successful exchanges ever created.

[00:12:46] Jeremy: Um, it's just, it's just really remarkable. I'm just remarking on that because I'm always just so impressed. Um, the, the, that second category, these sort of like the hive mind. [00:13:00] Syndicate model, which you're involved in obviously, and we're seeing sprout up, um, in, in, in, in a lot of ways. Um, we, we were, we were actually talking about a similar theme, um, a little while ago.

[00:13:13] Jeremy: Love to go a little bit deeper on that. You know, how fast do you think that these forms of dowels? I mean, how fast are they growing right now? Are you tracking this? I know there's a lot of sites that track like Dow, treasuries and other things, but there's just so much happening, you know, H how much capital do you think is going to get formed into these and, um, and deployed.

[00:13:38] Jeremy: And, uh, I'm just, I'm just trying to size this for people. Okay.

[00:13:44] Aaron: Yeah. So, you know, we started these investment hours about a year and a half ago allow, um, we, uh, pull primarily in ether. So if there's kind of the base currency, that's you. Um, and now there's nine of them. The total amount of ether that's been contributed to the dads that we support.

[00:13:59] Aaron: If [00:14:00] it's just eclipsed, I think 200, 200, 200 $50 million worth of eater. Um, if you look at across all the Dows based on various calculations, it's difficult. It looks like there's a. Um, I think about $1.5 billion in assets that have been put in Dows if you drill down to ether, that's contributed to Dow's it's about 600 million.

[00:14:20] Aaron: So we have a pretty, pretty broad chunk of, of that. Um, they're growing fast, right? At all the dads that we create are kind of member directed. Some members of our doubts come up with new ideas for dads, and then we kind of deploy capital related to it. The speed with which you can pull these dads together is, is really quick.

[00:14:38] Aaron: I'll give you an example. Yesterday we launched a beta burst out called neon. That's a $20 million vehicle. It took less than an hour from start to finish, to open and close. So the speed with which you can pull together capital on blockchain. It's not it wasn't just limited to token sales and ICO's now you have kind of a structured vehicle to do that really fast.

[00:14:58] Aaron: Um, in terms of the plane. [00:15:00] Um, you know, we processed across the network. I think we backed on like more of a venture slash project basis, about a hundred projects fired over 2000 and MTS to put millions of dollars into D five protocols, et cetera. Um, so these things can move really fast with the right structuring.

[00:15:16] Aaron: And the nice thing about what we do is we're about like circle. We want to do this the right way in the U S so we dot I's and cross T's on the regulatory side and place all these dads into, um, illegal structure, which I think gives people. Um, in, in, you know, deploying their capital and, and making sure that they can, um, hopefully make a return as part of that process.

[00:15:36] Jeremy: Yeah. Let's, that's awesome. I mean, first of all, congratulations too. It's just amazing what you guys have done. So, so, so cool. Um, let's talk about the legal basis and, and, and maybe actually, there's, there's sort of two parts to this question. I think it would be interesting for people to hear about the open law project and, and what that project is.

[00:15:57] Jeremy: Um, and then secondly, um, really [00:16:00] specifically, what do you think is best in class right now in the United States for having a, a legal form to, uh, to form in particular, obviously these investment Dows, but more broadly as well, because certainly there are, there are doubts that are trying to form that, um, maybe are like the content production, examples or others, but what is best in class on the legal.

[00:16:25] Aaron: Yeah. So I'm on the legal side. I think for investment as a wrap down model makes sense. Uh, this was something that started even before 3m launched. It was a bunch of events at MIT, thinking about all the, uh, you know, crazy at the time ideas that were percolating out of the Bitcoin and Ethereum ecosystems and including Dows, um, and me and a handful of other professors.

[00:16:48] Aaron: Uh, from Washington and Lee, uh, from Harvard, from other, uh, other esteemed institutions began to think about, well, how can we bring this to the real world? Right. We know that [00:17:00] crypto is not going to be an island forever. And these interact with traditional systems and the thought was that you could use the very flexible LLC structure in the.

[00:17:08] Aaron: As a way to wrap a doubt. Um, so we kind of thought about it at an academic level. Uh, it took some time for the tooling to get put in place. And then we began to operationalize this with the Lao and some other teams began to operationalize it. I notable example, there is medic cartel ventures, um, and there were some earlier experiments.

[00:17:26] Aaron: Uh, to kind of get this moving, uh, Wyoming just recently passed a bill that kind of, uh, validated some of this approach. Um, it basically, uh, enables you to set up a Dao. It's like a sub class of a or subcategory of an LLC, um, which gives a lot of flexibility in terms of. Uh, structuring these pooled investment vehicles.

[00:17:48] Aaron: I don't think that structure works for everything for content as, and maybe some of these larger open source protocol defined as you probably are gonna need another structure. Uh, we are working on some [00:18:00] structures related to that that we think can work. Um, and I think you'll hear a little bit more about that.

[00:18:05] Aaron: Uh, the reason that these structures are best in class. Number one, if there is a legal entity you're able to handle basic things like tax and accounting, you can get a tax ID number that you can also manage risks related to pulling capital together and working together for a common purpose. Uh, those risks include things like, uh, softening obligations related to fiduciary obligations, which are fancy legal words for heightened obligations that you have.

[00:18:29] Aaron: Folks that you're working with, uh, you can waive conflicts of interest if you need to. And you can kind of manage some downside risk, which I think people don't think about until everything goes sideways. And then they think about those types of risks quite a bit. Um, so with the little upfront planning, you can kind of ensure that these projects are set up for the long run, uh, and our hypothesis and our, our God.

[00:18:50] Aaron: Um, I feel like this kind of aligned. How do you approach things? Jeremy is by doing it right. But being a little bit more conservative, uh, you actually build a longer-term value. And [00:19:00] we think that, um, we think that that kind of approach is also threaded through with these, this wrapped down model.

[00:19:05] Jeremy: Yeah.

[00:19:06] Jeremy: It's, it's, it's great. I think, um, you know, I'd actually love for you to share your advice with us a little bit. Like, you know, how can, how can circle be more involved in this ecosystem? How can circle B um, You know, helping contribute to, um, supporting, you know, legal Dows. Um, I mean, you know, we're, we're doing a little bit of that today.

[00:19:30] Jeremy: Um, but, um, you know, w w what do you think the opportunities are for a company like circle to be, you know, really involved in the.

[00:19:39] Aaron: Yeah. I mean, I, I think, um, obviously USBC is for many folks in the ecosystem, um, an asset of choice, uh, outside of ether. Um, and I don't, I think that there's a huge advantage to having USBC used as one of the base assets for these Daz.

[00:19:56] Aaron: I re I realized I didn't answer your question about where I think the ecosystem will go. [00:20:00] Uh, just looking kind of at. I don't think it's unreasonable that there's multiple billions of dollars in these status. If we kind of keep up the cadence of growth that we're having by some point next year, uh, which is pretty astounding.

[00:20:13] Aaron: Um, and I don't think either is going to work for every person that wants to participate in a doubt. So I think that an easy logical example, there would be, um, USCC and kind of building the on-ramps and off-ramps in order to join a Dao, uh, you know, set up an account, um, Um, that's something, you know, some of our members have asked for, um, we like to keep it kind of pure.

[00:20:35] Aaron: So we, we started everything with ether and that's enabled us to work with, you know, some of the larger holders of ether and some other folks that, uh, that have been deep in the space for awhile. But I think that that's going to expand the, on that. I think another area is just, uh, thinking about, uh, more institutional pools of capital that are looking for either crypto exposure.

[00:20:57] Aaron: Um, you know, [00:21:00] Um, and are looking to play around with digital assets. I think Dows work really well for that. Um, it creates a structure where they can deploy capital. Uh, they can have it managed possibly by, um, a broader group, um, and a group that may have better insight into where the market is going. And that could over the long run, ensure that there's return on that capital, but also, uh, give them.

[00:21:24] Aaron: Um, so that they don't have to deal with tricky questions related to custody and, um, and other compliance related issues. Uh, so I think that that's kind of another area. That's something. I think we're probably in, you know, this kind of flows into the seed, invest questions. I don't think those are going to be limited to, you know, just investments, but also capital formation.

[00:21:43] Aaron: You can imagine lots of really interesting ways to, um, make it more easy for teams and projects to raise capital using a Dal, which I like structure. Um, that's something we're also thinking quite a bit about. Um, and I wouldn't be surprised if you see. From us on that front, [00:22:00] in the upcoming

[00:22:01] Jeremy: quarters. Yeah.

[00:22:02] Jeremy: We, we, we, we definitely see that. I think, um, this kind of convergence between crowdfunding and traditional equity models versus, you know, crowdfunding and Dows and crypto based models and they're, they, they clearly are going to converge. Um, and, um, and I think what's exciting about that is potentially like the, the, the rain.

[00:22:23] Jeremy: Of projects that could get funded. That way goes actually well beyond what is quote unquote in the crypto ecosystem, right? I mean, it really can be the, the organization that hive mind, the ability of people who are experts in passionate and has, and have all this can parse the signal to noise of everything happening on the internet and in a domain to more smartly, make decisions, um, and, and facilitate participation down to the individual.

[00:22:50] Jeremy: It's a huge, it's definitely a huge opportunity. Um, I want to come back to illegal some legal stuff and, um, uh, and just ask your, your [00:23:00] thoughts about the global nature of this. And we were talking about some of this yesterday and some of the Q and a, which is, um, you know, the power of this is like the power of the internet, right?

[00:23:11] Jeremy: You can, these things can form, you can have participation from basically anyone who can cryptographically prove that they have digital assets or digital tokens. Uh, whether it's a fungible or non fungible token, they can kind of, um, participate and form in these and, and the efficiency of that, um, uh, of an internet native economic, these economic units is like super profound and it seems like it will just grow and grow and grow.

[00:23:39] Jeremy: Um, how do you think the global nature of this can work? Legally. Um, are we going to see, we already are seeing global scale Dows with global scale participation, but they don't appear to be anchored in any significant [00:24:00] legal substance yet. Um, how do you think that, how do you think that evolves? How do you think that gets resolved?

[00:24:06] Jeremy: Do you think we need uniform law changes in advanced economies around the world? Like what, what do you think is necessary? And is there a crawl walk, run on that?

[00:24:18] Aaron: Yeah. And. Uh, we're we're in the crawl walk, run stage. We think that that's the right approach. Let's prove this out show that this is a productive model and then push for sensible reform, um, and, and other regulatory changes that may be needed.

[00:24:34] Aaron: Um, but it, you know, the U S is amazing for setting up legal entities that were pretty much the McDonald's of legal entities. You've got a wide. You can pick anything that you want and get it delivered to you super fast, uh, which is fantastic. Um, and we're in a great position from the regulatory perspective to kind of capture the down market because because of that flexibility and most parts of the globe, they assume that there's going to be a manager in charge of a company [00:25:00] in the U S because we love contracts.

[00:25:02] Aaron: We believe in this notion of what legal academics would call private ordering that people can enter into a range. Uh, tie that way without government supervision, um, we are able to accommodate. Um, we can have entities that don't have kind of an express manager, which I think is a core kind of a core thesis with those.

[00:25:21] Aaron: Uh, the big challenges, I think, are the level of legal formality that's necessary to spend one of these up. So if a state is going to provide you with, let's say limitation of liability, which helps people take risk, um, you know, what do you have to file with the state in order to do that? Um, today you have to.

[00:25:38] Aaron: I prepared a whole bunch of paperwork and shoot that in, in many states that's still by a fax machine, um, which is a little bit cumbersome. Um, and hopefully we can see states in the U S move towards more advanced systems like API APIs or, you know, other, you know, basic, uh, computing technology so that you can really set one of these things up from a command line, right?

[00:25:58] Aaron: Open up tournament, all, you [00:26:00] know, type in a command. Spin up Dow Docker, compose Dow, and then you're, you're ready to go. Um, so I think we'll, we'll get there. Um, I think the other challenges are not surprising. It's taxed, right? Uh, it's reasonable. If you're making a profit that you should pay tax and you should pay tax in the jurisdiction in which, uh, Um, but that's, those are, those are challenges that any kind of pooled investment vehicle would face.

[00:26:24] Aaron: Um, you know, maybe there's some improvements or enhancements that can be done there. I personally think dads are great for tax collection because it actually neutralizes those costs and expenses. Uh, so as we see kind of the us, um, increasingly, uh, want to make sure that people are satisfying their tax obligations.

[00:26:42] Aaron: I think that is, may be kind of a piece of that picture or a solution, right? I mean, you have.

[00:26:47] Jeremy: You have transparency, auditability, you have, you know, the ability to lock things and have time releases and things. I mean, you can programmatically, uh, uh, have, you know, a more, more efficient way to, to [00:27:00] handle things like tax obligations.

[00:27:01] Jeremy: Um, I'm interested as a follow on to what you just described, which is, um, you know, as a, as a, uh, clearly not as active of unreserved of this as you, but it seems. There really is like, uh, a lot of, of doubts that are now funding doubt tooling efforts. Like the doubt tooling itself is a really interesting emerging space.

[00:27:24] Jeremy: Are some of these problems getting solved? I mean, are there, are there teams working on like the doubt tooling problem spaces? Like you can imagine obviously so many different things, but, um, what are some examples of what's emerging in terms of Dow tooling and what, what will make this easier and easier?

[00:27:40] Jeremy: More SAS like, uh,

[00:27:42] Aaron: Yeah, I think, uh, I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done in the doubt tooling side. It was kind of a first-generation of Dao tooling, some notable examples that were Aragon Dow stack, and they were great. I mean, they, I think they really kind of laid out the vision of what needed to be done.

[00:27:58] Aaron: Um, a lot of [00:28:00] doubt tooling is really focused on treasury management. So once you've collected and pooled funds, how do you keep that secure? How do you enable disparate groups to kind of manage. So that's kind of one broad category. The second one is just, how do you deal with sentiment or governance and efficient ways?

[00:28:14] Aaron: Uh, over the past year, plus we've just seen a lot of advancements, uh, in, in the, in that realm, particularly with governance. Uh, so snapshot, which is a wonderful project, enables people to vote. Uh, if they just have an asset in the. Um, which is just really seamless and simple, that has kind of a web to like experience on the treasury management side and kind of the Dao operations piece.

[00:28:35] Aaron: There's just a lot of work that still needs to be done. Uh we're we are seeing kind of next generation data tooling emerge. Uh we're we just released a whole set of smart contracts. It's called the tributes out framework. Um, it's really great. It's more modular and extent. So you can basically plug and play into different organizations.

[00:28:52] Aaron: We're working to lower the cost of operating these dials, particularly on Ethereum, um, on the gas management side. And I [00:29:00] think you'll see over. Um, yeah, year, year and a half, just a lot of smoothing, uh, that will occur in the down space. And that's when I imagine things will kind of go vertical. Um, uh, I think that's the big blocker here.

[00:29:13] Aaron: It's not really ideas. It's really just technical execution, but I think there's a number of teams and we're not alone that have a, an idea of how to solve some of these issues. And as we begin to solve these issues and as we begin to work together, uh, to kind of build out a cool. Infrastructure, you basically have an operating system for organizations and that's really important.

[00:29:33] Aaron: Um, and hopefully that's all open source and interoperable. Just imagine a world where every, you know, legal entity, every corporation can talk to one another because they're kind of on the same stack. I mean, that, that's amazing. So we have pro programmable money, which is fascinating, but programmable organizations is that I imagine were a lot of valuable

[00:29:52] Jeremy: accrue that is clearly where the world is headed.